Members, we (the Recreation Centers of Sun City West – Association) wanted to provide you with an important update on where we are at with resolving the tax status issues with our chartered clubs and the Village Store.
You may have heard a lot of rumors or read misinformation in the Independent and on various social media accounts, so we wanted to update you directly.
Let’s first take a look at the history of this issue. Prior to COVID, one of our chartered clubs (Kiva West Bridge), brought to our attention that their tax preparer had concerns about the club’s filing as it appeared they were in violation of IRS tax codes. The codes require that 501(c)7s (social clubs) ensure at least 85 percent of their revenues come from club members (not Association members, but club members). Specifically, no more than 15 percent of a club’s gross receipts can come from non-club members.
Our clubs are independent tax entities with their own tax ID numbers, boards of directors, and operating rules. They exist under the auspices of our Association as chartered clubs, so there is some crossover. However, we do not check their tax filings for compliance or accuracy. We do help the smaller clubs with the digital filing, and we provide general training to the treasurers and officers.
We had a similar compliance issue with clubs in 2011 that was addressed and corrected at that time. Over the years, compliance from craft clubs has slid off the tracks and the Association is attempting to rectify that by encouraging the clubs to get back in line with the rules. Following IRS regulations benefits the clubs and the Association.
One proposal offered by Director Lou Mancuso would dissolve the clubs’ independent 501(c)7 statuses and move the clubs under the Association’s 501(c)4 umbrella. He further proposes that non-Association members could enjoy the clubs by paying a fee.
The impacts of such a major change have not been fully investigated yet, but we do know more staff would have to be hired to run the day-to-day operations of the clubs and handle the accounting for the clubs. This includes accounting for public usage of the club facilities.
The proposal from Mr. Mancuso was discussed at the June 4 Workshop (you can view it here). It is not clear if this proposal has the support of the full Board. The current Board ends its term on June 30. A new Board will be seated July 1 with many of the same Directors. Which officers will be in place at that time is in question as Mr. Mancuso and Directors Sharon Hettick and Lisa Vines have challenged the last election of officers and called for a new vote simply because one of the Directors resigned from the Board a month later for personal reasons. That effort will be voted upon by the Board at a Special Meeting, which begins at 9 a.m. tomorrow (Thursday) in the Lecture Hall. It is open to the community and may also be viewed live here.
When the 501(c)7 tax issues came to our attention pre-COVID, we looked at ways to rectify it and came up with a proposal to help Kiva West continue operating in much the same way they do now. That proposal was shelved during COVID but as operations got back into gear, we looked again at Kiva as well as the other 102 chartered clubs to make sure they were aware of the tax codes governing 501(c)7s.
It soon became apparent that three groups of our chartered clubs had veered off the track in terms of following IRS regulations, Association policies and RR&Ps, and it was time to get them back in line with the rules. The vast majority of our groups operate just as they should with their tax status. About 10 clubs that fall into three distinct categories are the concern.
The three groups include:
- Social Clubs that have a high number of outside guests, where the revenue from those outside guests far exceed the 15 percent limit.
- Clubs, particularly some sports club, that take in outside advertising revenue. In some cases, this advertising was sought to pay off interest-free loans offered by RCSCW to pay for the club’s facility enhancements. (It has since been determined these loans will no longer be allowed.)
- Craft clubs that sell large amounts of products or higher-priced products at the fairs, their storefronts and through the Village Store.
In the case of group No. 3, it became apparent the Village Store was unintentionally promoting this problem. Due to the complicated nature of these issues, the Board met in executive session to receive legal advice from our attorney on how to proceed. The Board also appointed a special committee to investigate the potential tax status issue.
The committee was comprised of Board Treasurer Anne Brown, General Manager Bill Schwind, CFO Pete Finelli, Accounting Manager Tim DeAngelo, Chartered Clubs Chair Donna Maloney, Pickleball Club rep Ken Holtz (for the club advertising issue), Kiva Bridge representative Gary Bosak (for the outside guests issue), and incoming (and now sitting) Director Lisa Vines, as a representative for the arts and crafts clubs since she is a member and instructor with some of the clubs. Our Association attorney and a tax attorney in their firm that is a CPA also were involved.
The committee held three meetings – April 22, April 29 and May 6. These were held in executive session as we were discussing the legal advice received from our attorneys.
The information they gathered was disseminated as quickly as possible after the committee concluded its work and was dissolved. This was expedited due to a number of timing issues, including: COVID restrictions were lifting, the Village Store Manager was retiring, our snowbirds were beginning to depart, and the Governing Board was nearing the end of its fiscal year and the beginning of a three-month summer hiatus.
The first decision made was the difficult announcement that we were temporarily closing the Village Store. The closure was done to give the exiting manager time to get products back to their artisans before the manager’s retirement and the snowbirds’ departure. The store remains in limbo. We are trying to determine its future.
We then held a meeting with the clubs – all 103 of them! – broken into three sessions to accommodate everyone. We went over our findings and discussed the need for them to get back to following current policy and stay within IRS regulations or risk losing their federal tax-exempt status.
Closing the store resolved that one area of non-compliance; in whatever format or location the store reopens, it will be done in such a way that the issue remains resolved. As far as the fairs, our Events Manager is currently working on a craft fair sale that will allow for member sales while remaining in compliance with tax codes.
At this time, we still have some clubs operating in probable violation of the IRS rules and RR&Ps. Director and Chartered Clubs Chair Donna Maloney attempted to offer a solution by drafting proposed changes to the RR&Ps. The Chartered Club Committee unanimously approved the changes, and they were brought to the Board on June 4. The issue was contentious, and the proposed changes were not approved. (You can view the discussion here.)
Since that time, Director Lou Mancuso has announced he is leading a recall effort on Director Maloney and another Director who supported the changes – incoming President Sue Fitzsimons.
As we know more, we will keep you apprised in future editions of the enews (and the Rec Center News to the extent the deadline allows). If you know residents who do not get the enews, we ask that you encourage them to sign up for future updates.
Unless I over looked it, in which case I apologize, your headline stated “Changes could impact Owner Member Dues”, I saw nothing to say how or why owner dues should/could be impacted. I’d like to know, please
Moderator’s Note: The views expressed here are from Director Mancuso as an individual director. They do not represent the views of the staff or the entire Board.
Please read my response Lou Mancuso, Director RCSCW on June 10, 2021 at 12:13 pm in the enews comment section that will clarify the guest issue that was taken out of context in the enews article.
The change in the guest policy would be for 2 clubs (card and dance club). ALL of our other guest policies that are in place would continue. There would be NO ADDIITONAL NON RESIDENTS AT ANY VENUES IN OUT CITY, WHICH WILL INCLUDE POOLS, EXERCISE AREAS, PICKLEBALL, CRAFT CLUBS, REC CENTER ACTIVITIES, etc. We DO HAVE a solid guest policy and, in my opinion, it should be enforced except for card and dance clubs. As a matter of fact, the GENERAL MANAGER is exploring an EXCEPTION to this policy for a CARD CLUB as we speak. It’s interesting that this wasn’t mentioned. Hmmmm………
As for the $2million dollar annual loss for golf and bowling I have included my response to a resident on this annual loss to our association. I can not attach a file to the comments but if you would like a copy email me at the address in my comments and I will send it to you.
The email response below is after I detailed the losses in the document (FY 21-22 Budget Packet – 3-10-21.pdf) that I reference above.
My point is that we all pay dues to live in this wonderful city with more amenities than any of us could possibly use. Who could want better!
I realize we all pay dues, and our dues support the golf and bowling deficit. I would also say that ONLY +/-25% of our residents play golf. Many just a few rounds of golf annually, however, the 75% that DO NOT PLAY GOLF are covering a hefty golf and bowling deficit of +/- $2million dollars annually with their dues.
I believe our residents who enjoy golf and bowling, as well as these other activities are due the same fiscal resources that golf and bowling residents receive. I doubt that the amount of the additional cost to accomplish compliance with 501c7 tax issues will approach the more than $2 million annual LOSS for golf and bowling. Make no mistake, I believe this deficit will NOT DECLINE in the out years but ONLY INCREASE!
Certainly, some of the changes that will keep our city, nearly as close to what it once was, prior to this issue, will result in additional cost.
Would you refuse the 75% of our residents that don’t play golf and bowl their fair share of our fiscal resources?
Reasonable people make reasonable decisions, my issue is that I don’t believe the committee that was convened to address the 501c7 tax issue did their due diligence. As I mentioned in my comments in the enews article, I’ve only thought about this for a short period of time and have several ideas that at a minimum can be presented to legal and fiscal professionals to determine their viability.
Let’s all live here in harmony, but harmony means we know what the facts are, what the reasonable rules are and there is fairness and equity of our fiscal resources.
I welcome your comments and feedback.
Director Mancuso, you make both a substantive and a procedural point. Your substantive point about golf and bowling ignores that, for many years, this community has “survived” their deficits. In point of fact, the “enterprise”, as a whole, has continuously managed both an increased budget and reserves. despite golf & bowling deficits. This has been “baked” into the budget for years and years. Did you not understand this budget dynamic?
Your procedural point also fails. The committee presented a completely rational solution, to wit: address the 10 or so clubs (out of 103+/-), each with their own separate, independent *corporate*, legal and tax identity. Your critique omits that this committee had the benefit of tax counsel to the Association.
If clubs are intentionally operating in probable violation of the IRS rules and RR&Ps, why couldn’t they be advised to stop all activity until their situation is resolved?
We at Silvercraft West stopped all activity in April. We would love to have this resolved.
I just hope the people at Facebook we’re not responsible for monitoring the visibility of our clubs. Imagine this: old people doing bad things again.
It is unfortunate that there seem to be those who are opposed to following the regulations promulgated by the IRS and who appear to be trying to get rid of their opposition by getting those who do not agree with them removed from the board. All this will do is, eventually, bring the wrath of the US Government down on at least the clubs involved and possibly the entire Rec Center organization, eventually hurting everyone.
Due to the fact that only a few 501(c)7s are not in compliance with the IRS regulations related to their tax-exempt status, the most cost effective and most equitable solution would be to have these chartered clubs either comply with the tax regulations of 501(c)7 or loose their charter status. Thus reducing tax exposure for the rest of our association.
The propasal to have RH Johnson, the 501(c)4 organization, take the 501(c)7s under its tax umbrella will result in significant cost increase and the additional exposure of the 501(c)4 to tax audit.
I do not think or believe that the majority of our members wish to have increased fees being imposed on the owner members for the sake of a few 501(c)7s.
Susan; It would also work if the clubs were able to change their tax status to enable them to sell some of their work, such as is done in Sun City and Sun City Grand.There would NO reason to increase our fees.
Close the club’s. We pay too much in dues now. I can see where you are going with this. Sun City West is going down hill each year. You spent too much money every year, and it falls back on the members. (BMH)
In my opinion, closing clubs defeats the benefits of living here.
How will this “impact owner member dues”? Are you referring to the yearly $498 fee we currently pay each person in a household? Just curious if you are referring to those fees possibly changing.
Opening up to the outside sounds like a bad idea to me. If you dont have a vested interest in the community (home ownership or rental) you are less likely to care about the outcome of the community. If club membership is dwindling in certain areas, the club should be evaluated and possibly eliminated.
Has anyone talked to Sun City how they handel these things?
They have a store.?
Could the crafter’s just have a 1099 at the end of the year.
So many people upset about the store closure.
So many of us bought here for the clubs.
Hope things can get back to some kind of normal.
Thank you.
I am not in favor or opening clubs to the public because the incentive to buy a house in Sun City West is lost and will affect our property values.
Who prepared this update ? And who are these statements made by? This is important so that we know who is doing the reporting. This should be public information and accompany and new updates.
Thank You for your attention
Sun City West is one-of-a-kind retirement community and I will NEVER agree to letting non-association persons join any club in Sun City West for a fee. The board has already opened the door slightly by letting non-association persons play golf and bowl in the facilities. Going any further by letting ANY non-association person join a club of Sun City West for a fee will certainly turn this community into something that I, nor any of my children, will want to live here.
Please do not open SCW clubs to the public.
Please do not open our clubs to the public. One reason a majority of us live in SCW is due to the private clubs for tje residents. Opening our clubs will take away from the very reason many 55+ adults move here. Selling crafts vs. Opening clubs to the public should not be the deciding decision. There are options for those that want to sell their product. By the way I do belong to a club that sells their crafts.
I feel opening clubs to non-residents is such a bad idea.
The reason people purchase homes here is because of the age restrictions and the ability to belong to age restricted clubs. Opening clubs to non residents will bring increased traffic and decreased home values. Why buy here if you can have the benefits without the preservation fee and yearly dues?? We all know our yearly dues will never decrease but only increase every year.
I am vehemently opposed to this idea.
Opening to the public is against the reasons we moved here. I would suggest investing in alternative tax lawyers and making sure all residents are aware of what is coining on and holding public votes ( in person and by mail in due to the ages of the residences.)
We do not agree with Mr Mancuso suggested proposal of inviting the public to join our clubs and charge a fee. This proposal will only raise our dues to support the extra personnel it’ll take to manage the clubs.
We purchased our home here to enjoy the recreation centers and golf courses limited to owners 55 and older. We would lose the exclusivity of living here.
I am strongly opposed to this potential change. If nonresidents are allowed to be a join our clubs, they impact the size of those clubs and the space allotted to them, which is unfair to other clubs. Honestly if this change goes into effect, I’m really not sure that I will feel an incentive to remain a member of this community. Our clubs are the PRIMARY reason I live in SCW. If we’re going to sell that, . . .
I do not want to see the clubs opened to outsiders. A big attraction to owning in SCW is the clubs and facilities. They are for SCW residents. That’s what SCW was founded on, and why we bought here.
The clubs are social activities. They were not established to provide resources for cottage industries. Some sales are reasonable, but not with the idea of it being a side business.
I don’t like all the ads for sponsors either. It’s certainly a way to recognize donations, but it’s commercializing our facilities. Not what I want to see.
I do not understand the recall talk. I’m not clear on the issue, buy I don’t think recall is to be used when reasonable people disagree. It just shows that the sad state of our national and state politics is alive on the SCW Governing board.
We need the Rec Ctrs and our Board to protect SCW, not give it away.
MODERATOR’S NOTE: The comments that appear here are those of Director Lou Mancuso, writing as an individual, not for the entire Board or the staff.
Since I was mentioned in this article, I would first like to thank the Rec Center News for finally advising our Residents of their plans. If you watch the video please refer to the end of these comments. It will have the times of Board members positions that should be of interest to all charter club members. Additionally, it has my thoughts on Director recalls. However, as I’m not sure that my long response is permitted, if my comments are reduced or redacted, I would ask anyone interested in the times for these certain events in the video (https://youtu.be/MtuEenoIzbs) to email me at the address at the end of this document or at my RCSCW email address – lou.mancuso@suncitywest.com.
Listed below are:
• Motion to create a Special Committee at the June 24,2021 GB Regular meeting
• Assuming that a special committee will be approved, my proposed agenda.
• Highlights from the Sun City West Governing Board Workshop June 4
Comment regarding changing the tax status for all clubs from 501c7 to 501c4.
Sun City Grand has this policy and although it is an option, I have listed other suggestions in the section “my proposed agenda”.
In the last few weeks, I have come up with several alternatives NOT the close everything down option.
Motion to create a Special Committee at the June 24,2021 GB Regular meeting
I am making a motion to create a Special Committee to address the 501c7 charter club tax status issues as follows:
Per:
Article 06 – COMMITTEES
Title ORGANIZATION OF COMMITTEES
Code 6.01
Committees shall be established by the Governing Board to assist the Board in performing its duties. In this respect, Committees recommend policy changes, analyze problems, and review operations as required to support the Board’s oversight responsibilities. Committees also support the General Manager by providing analysis and recommendations based on their expertise in specific areas.
6.1.1 Committees have no direct decision-making authority and are limited to presenting options and recommendations to the Governing Board and/or General Manager.
6.1.2 The President may, with the consent of the Governing Board, establish such special committees as they shall determine.
6.1.2.1 Any special committee shall be formed for a specific purpose and for a defined period of time not to exceed one (1) year but, with the approval of the Governing Board, may be extended as needed.
6.1.3 A Director of the Governing Board shall chair each standing committee and may chair special committees.
The purpose of this Special Committee will be to, and I quote from bylaw 6, code 6.01 “analyze problems”, “recommend policy changes” “as required to support the Board’s oversight responsibilities”.
To achieve this purpose, I am requesting to chair this Special Committee to address the 501c7 charter club tax status issues, and I am requesting immediate approval. The chair would request committee members via a publicized notice, responses due within 14 calendar days of such notice.
Those wishing participation in this special committee must be owner members of the Association and preferably have either legal or a fiscal background which must be detailed in their application for participation on this committee. The purpose of limiting committee members to those with a legal or fiscal background is that when discussing legal and fiscal issues those without a background in these areas are less likely to fully understand the jargon or nuances of those providing guidance.
The Chair, 2 Governing Board Directors or Director-elect and the General Manager or his designee would review the applications, select the members so as to have a committee to 7: 3 of which would have a legal background and 3 with a fiscal background. The Chair would break any tie votes in the selection process. If there are not enough responses from owner members with these requested qualifications the selection committee may select from those applicants, the candidate(s) that are best qualified to address this issue.
Additionally, since our existing professional services, to my knowledge, did not present alternative solutions that were presented to the Governing Board, I am requesting the Governing Board for the authority to research via conference or in person meetings with entities for professional services as it relates to legal counsel and fiscal professionals that are qualified to guide the Association in the 501c7 tax status of Charter Clubs. Furthermore, I would require that the General Manager or his designee attend all conference calls or in person meetings and that these calls be recorded for further review, if needed.
Thank you.
Assuming that I a special committee will be approved, my proposed agenda is:
Proposed agenda for Special Committee to address the 501c7 charter club tax issues.
Determine the club category (card playing clubs, dance clubs, sports clubs, other clubs (that do not fit into one of these categories), craft clubs and the Village Store.
Develop a standardized form for each club to complete that would determine their number of dues paying members, the amount of the dues paid to the club, any other dues paying members revenue (locker rental, special assessments, etc.) This is the amount that the IRS uses to evaluate their 15% rule.
My plan, although all of this will need to be vetted by legal and fiscal professionals.
Before anyone mentions that additional staff will be required to address some of my suggestions, I would ask that you look at the +/- $2 million dollar annual LOSS for golf and bowling.
I believe our residents who enjoy golf, as well as these other activities are due the same resources as the above and I doubt that the amount of the additional cost to accomplish this will approach the +/- $2 million annual loss for golf and bowling.
Card playing and Dance clubs.
Issues:
• Exceeding the 15% rule
• Existing guest policy
Exceeding the 15% rule
Suggestion: Any card playing or dance club that has events with non dues paying members or non residents would be required to advise the RCSCW General Manager of the event. At that event, a RCSCW staff member with a credit card machine would attend the event for the first two (2) hours, at which time the event would be closed to all but dues paying owner members. The RCSCW staff would ask if the person was a dues paying owner resident, a non-dues paying owner resident or a non resident. All revenue would be categorized accordingly.
ALL funds would be paid to the RCSCW, NOT to the club. Any expenses such as judges, food, etc. would be invoiced to the RCSCW not to the club. This would eliminate any funds going to the club and thus eliminating or minimizing the violation of the 15% rule. I would ask that each event be accounted for individually to determine the net revenue to the RCSCW (event participants revenue less expenses) and that each club have a ledger balance. This balance could be identified should the club request an expenditure by the RCSCW for the club.
Guest policy
I realize there are some out there that criticize me for my suggestions regarding guests. To that I would say for as long as I’ve lived here (2007) I have attended functions with non dues paying owner residents and non residents. I have NOT seen that our facilities have been abused or overused but rather they have been vibrant with activity. Note IRS rules DO NOT impact guest policy, only our bylaws and policies do.
My suggestion at the June 4,2021 Governing Board Meeting was to limit those who are not dues paying owner members to the percentage of dues paying members (possibly 25%) and in addition at these events 50% of the participants at a charter club event must be dues paying owner members of that charter club.
This would easily be monitored by the RCSCW staff person taking the event fees.
Could this cost could be an issue? I would say that although are staff are very good, many of our staff are paid minimum wage.
An example a charter club has 100 members and the non dues paying members and non residents are limited to 25% of the dues paying members. At this event 50 dues paying members attend and 25 non dues paying owner residents or non residents attend. There would be a ticket fee, very much like ticket master. Lets further assume this ticket fee is $2.00. The revenue in the first 2 hours for the 25 non dues paying owner residents or non residents would amount to $50. Assuming our RCSCW staff person earned minimum wage plus Fica, insurance, etc. their wages would not exceed the ticket fees they collected. As a matter of fact the RCSCW would probably benefit to the plus.
Now all of our Card playing and dance clubs that have these types of events can continue to be charter clubs and by changing the fee collection and guest policy to a reasonable policy, we would not FORCE them to VIOLATE our guest policy nor IRS rules.
Sports clubs
Issues:
• Tournaments and Exceeding the 15% rule
• Non tournaments revenue
• Existing guest policy – non tournament guest policy
Tournaments and Exceeding the 15% rule
Tournaments would require notification of the RCSCW of the tournament. The RCSCW would be the point for all tournament tickets, as most of these are currently paid on line via paypal, the RCSCW would have a specific account for each tournament paid to the RCSCW. This would eliminate any funds going to the sports club, and any expenses (judges, food, prizes, etc.) would be invoiced to the RCSCW.
Each ticket would have a “ticket fee” assessed for handling and processing.
I would ask that each event be accounted for individually to determine the net revenue to the RCSCW (event participants revenue less expenses) and that each club have a ledger balance. This balance could be identified should the club request an expenditure by the RCSCW for the club.
Non tournament sports charter club revenue
This doesn’t appear to be an issue, however we will sit with each sport club to determine a reasonable policy that they would have helped develop which would guarantee that the revenue collection would be such as to not violate the IRS 15% rule.
Non tournament guest policy
This doesn’t appear to be an issue, however we will sit with each sport club to determine a reasonable policy that they would have helped develop.
Once again, policies such as these would permit our charter sports clubs to have tournaments, enjoy their facilities without FORCING them to VIOLATE our guest policy nor IRS rules.
Craft clubs and the Village Store
Village Store
This suggestion was presented to me by a CPA, however, once again this and all the suggestions will need to be vetted by legal and fiscal professionals.
The Village store would become a corporation whose sole shareholder is the RCSCW. It would function as it did, selling crafts, collecting a commission and collecting AZ sales tax. It would continue to notify clubs of the sale of the crafter’s items, continue its 6-month policy for display then returning the item to the club, etc. The rental to this corporation would be based on a percentage of the gross commissions collected, which would limit the tax liability of this Village Store corporation.
Since the RCSCW has all crafter’s Social Security Number (only Owner Member, Associate Members and Tenant Members are permitted to sell in the Village Store) the RCSCW would send anyone who sold an item in the Village Store a 1099. The 1099 would be the net amount reported to the club. It would be the responsibility of the craft person to comply with the IRS regulation regarding this income. I would recommend the RCSCW bring in a professional CPA to explain this process to our residents. This would be on our Youtube channel and new members would be advised to view this for guidance in preparing their income taxes.
Craft Fairs could also continue; however, all clubs would need to provide the Village Store individual member sales for the Craft Fairs. Currently some clubs only report gross sales for the craft fairs to the Village Store which is then used to calculate the Village Store commission of 16%.
Craft Clubs
Those clubs (e.g. the Garden Club) who sell as a club and not as individuals would be capped on their annual sales. The amount of the cap would be determined with input from the club.
What do we do about the Policy that states the use of RCSCW club resources CAN NOT be used for members personal monetary gain?
This has gone on for many years. I realize that the RCSCW dues paid by all residents is used to maintain these craft clubs (heat, A/C, water, etc) and that non-club members don’t benefit from this expense of their dues to maintain the craft clubs, but I’ve not heard that non-club members are objectionable to it. Once again, I must refer to the +/-$2 million annual LOSS for golf and bowling.
As a suggestion, we would have language that a crafter could only have $x of sales per month? Once reached, they would be precluded from putting items into the village store until their monthly sales allotment complies with the policy. These folks, who exceeded their monthly sales allotment, would be monitored to ensure they were not “manufacturing” in the club?
Example: There is a limit of $200 per month that a crafter can sell. In month one a crafter puts $400 worth of items into the Village Store and sells $300 in month 1. The crafter has exceeded the $200 monthly sales allotment for month 1 & 2 and would not be permitted to submit items for sale in the VS in month 2. In month 2 the crafter sells $50. In month 3 the accrued sales allotment for 3 months is $600, the total sales were $350 for the first 2 months. The crafter would be permitted to put anything in the Village Store in month 3. This would be monitored by the club.
The Village Store and our Charter clubs are some of the many amenities in our community that are valuable marketing tool to keep our community viable including keeping our home values HIGH. I doubt you have visitors that come to visit that you don’t take to the village store. We must continue to market our community and by accepting these restrictive policies and RR&Ps we are reducing our marketing visibility, not to mention the demise of our clubs.
Highlights from the Sun City West Governing Board Workshop June 4
Although you are encouraged to watch the entire (4 Hour) video, agenda items 4.02, 5.01 and 5.02 are related to Charter clubs 501c7 tax status. However, if you prefer to watch the section related to the majority of 501c7 tax status issues, the time regarding the issue and the impact on Charter clubs have been noted below. The highlights below, I feel, should be of importance to every dues paying member of a charter club.
To view this YouTube video “RCSCW Governing Board Workshop – Friday, June 4, 2021” go to https://suncitywest.com/ > click on the YouTube icon {follow on youtube} which is below “Things To Do” located on the banner at the top of this page. On the next page click on “video” which is next to “Home” navigate to the video “RCSCW Governing Board Workshop – Friday, June 4, 2021”
1 20:26 4.02 Chartered Clubs Tax Status Update — General Manager Bill Schwind
2 44:31 Did our General Manager talk with David Twiggs regarding their clubs tax status? He did not but felt comfortable that his staff had.
3 57:10 Donna Maloney details the new restrictive RR&Ps, line by line.
4 1:12:22 Lou Mancuso’s recommendations for resolution to the 501c7 issue. Please note that these are recommendations and possible solutions but need to be vetted by licensed legal and financial professionals.
5 1:28:30 Lou’s opinion that the Village Store will be gone. Later in the meeting (23 &24) “5.02 Review of Policy Fi 14 (Village Store) Elimination — Chartered Clubs Chairperson Donna Maloney” is presented to retire Eliminate the Village Store! Sue and Donna supported (voted YES) which would bring these 2 proposals to the next Governing Board Regular meeting for a vote to make these permanent governing documents.
6 1:32:30 Lou advised Donna that there is an Order of precedence that must be followed to review and approve governing documents, which are not being followed.
7 1:34:08 Georges comments on bylaw review. We have a review every year of the bylaws in our July session with our lawyer he keeps us in compliance with the Arizona Statutes. When it comes to our bylaws our bylaws are available for us to review at all time.
8 1:35:41 Sue asks if I want another committee. Lou responds that he does, and it should consider best of breed and other possible solutions.
9 1:36:28 Lou states any Director who votes for these RR&Ps and policies should be recalled.
10 1:39:03 Donna advising the Governing Board that she worked on these and is very proud of her work and she was the representative for all charter clubs.
11 1:41:09 Did you have a CPA on the committee? How about Sun City Grand? She is confident the finding and recommendations of our special committee did their due diligence……..
12 142:20 Donna states that these RR&Ps will benefit all Association members and all Arts and Craft clubs.
13 1:44:00 and 1:52:28 Lou suggests the RR&Ps and policies as presented will be the demise of clubs in SCW.
14 1:44:12 Lou recommends that all owner residents write the President to advise of your displeasure of this committee and RR&Ps and Fi-14 policy.
15 1:48:36 Donna states clubs can now get their own legal opinions. Lou disagrees and says we should not permit this @ 1:49:09.
16 1:50:23 Donna states that there are a lot of clubs and each should do their own thing, she mentioned the Metal Club’ revenue. Lou didn’t respond regarding the work required for all clubs, but he should have and advised Donna that this is our job! However, he retorted, if we want clubs to do their own thing why even have RR&Ps? He also mentioned not to worry about the metal club because with these restrictive RR&Ps there won’t be a metal club!
17 1:54:22 Sue asks if we went to SCG. Sharon responds Yes you approved it and asked me to ask Riley for approval, I did and he said Yes. I believe she challenged this because she was looking for a way to invalidate the possible solutions we found.
18 1:59:10 Lou tells Bill, My job is to find solutions, not kick the can down the road.
19 2:00:25 You didn’t look for Best of Breed or alternate solutions.
20 2:01:02 Kick the can, buddy! Lou felt that he didn’t find other solutions, just presented the same 501c7 legal guidance, which Lou concurred was accurate.
21 2:01:39 Sue’s YES – Vote to approve the restrictive RR&Ps* all other Directors voted no
22 2:01:43 Donna’s YES – Vote to approve the restrictive RR&Ps* all other Directors voted no
23 2:05:42 Donna’s YES – vote for policy* “5.02 Review of Policy Fi 14 (Village Store) Elimination. All other Directors voted no.
24 2:05:48 Sue’s YES – vote for policy* “5.02 Review of Policy Fi 14 (Village Store) Elimination. All other Directors voted no.`
* * * A Yes vote would bring these 2 proposals to the next Governing Board Regular meeting for a vote to make these permanent governing documents.
In my opinion, there are 2 Directors that supported (by voting Yes) the restrictive RR&Ps that would be, in my opinion, the demise of Charter Clubs in SCW (21 & 22) and both voted yes (23 & 24) for policy Policy Fi 14 (Village Store) Elimination. All other Directors voted no on both proposals.
I do not want this type of Director to represent me, my clubs and my Association.
I believe they have not done their due diligence by not researching and presenting other options to eliminate the 501c7 tax related issues and I also believe if options were presented that would require changing our bylaws and policies that they may not support them based on their past voting record.
If you feel you do not want Directors like these to represent you, there is a mechanism in our bylaws to recall Directors by the residents of the Association, who feel that they do not support their best interest or the best interest of the residents of the Association. Please see Bylaw Article 4 Removal of an officer of the Governing Board, Code 4.16 and compliance with policy statement L4, which are stated below.
All bylaws, policy statements can be found on https://go.boarddocs.com/az/rcscw/Board.nsf/Public> Policies> Book. Drop down menu> Select Bylaws, Policy Statements or Standing Rules.
I would like to have 20 owner members to contact me (Lmancusojr@gmail.com) if you interested in joining me in this recall process. It would entail registering with the RCSCW so that you are qualified to collect signatures. Each person registering would need to collect 75/100 signatures. This could not be done on any RCSCW property which includes but not limited to the Rec Centers, golf courses, Sports Pavilion, club rooms, etc. I would recommend that you ask folks to come to your home to sign the recall petition. I will provide hand outs, like the above so our residents can view the actions that I believe require the recall of these Directors.
Lou Mancuso, Governing Board Director. 6/8/2021
12915 W Star Ridge Dr., Sun City West, AZ 85375
LMNJAZ@gmail.com
Clubs should exist for enjoyment of SCW resident members. However, the proposed changes to the RR&Ps (that were not moved forward) would be detrimental to the arts and crafts clubs (e.g., beads, jewelry, metal, wood, etc.) If those clubs don’t have an outlet for their artwork, members will begin to drop out as they’ve inundated family and friends with their work products.
My suggestion is to address the issue by focusing only on those clubs that sell stuff. I belong to the Yoga Club and would prefer not to have to worry about the RR&Ps if they are applied to all clubs. That might mean two sets of RR&Ps, but the ‘maker’ clubs are a different type of club, and are in the minority of clubs.
To accomplish the above, I recommend that the Association apply a classification to our clubs that describes them in a way that is meaningful to the Association, rather than using their tax status. ‘Social’ could still be a category and other categories might be ‘Maker,’ ‘Competitive or Sport,’ ‘Charity,’ ‘Health,’ ‘Entertainment,’ and so on. Doing this would enable the Association to deal with clubs on a more granular level than just ‘SCW Club,’ or 501(c)(7) club.
By being more granular, the RR&Ps could have a common component for each type of club and then components that are tailored to the club’s category. Not only would this help make the RR&Ps more focused, it would also eliminate all of the exceptions that would have to be documented in a single RR&P document, such as we have now.
Before I retired, I was a Strategy Consultant; I helped organizations streamline their processes, organization chart, and procedures. A large part of what I did was to help enterprises (not unlike RCSCW) during mergers, acquisitions, and divestitures. I mention this because of the club software pilot that is about to begin. I’m very concerned that the approach being taken will result in failure. I’ve discussed this with Katy O’Grady but to no avail.
In any event, I’d be willing to help the GB with these challenges.
The Rec Board’s prime directive with respect to social clubs should be to make only those changes necessary to comply with federal and state tax laws. For that reason I support Mr. Mancuso’s proposal.
Opening Clubs to the public is not a solution, for many reasons!
This crisis has been a long time coming and correction long over due!
We got to this point by allowing the Clubs too much autonomy, supervision by the Rec Center Management is essential!
We have allowed several Clubs to be operated as businesses, rather than as hobby and crafting for personal pleasure! This has had the result of increasing operational costs, and member dues!
Rein in the offenders immediately and reestablish our founding purpose, on one sheet of music! Not 100 different ways of operating the Clubs!
Reopen the Village Store. Let craft clubs continue as before, selling their beautiful creations. BUT… give up the tax exempt status. Let the store, clubs, and individuals pay income tax, like any other business. As an individual, I would expect to receive a 1099 from the store, if I sold the minimum amount for a 1099 to be issued.
This could also apply to the clubs that take in advertising dollars.
And as aside, Sue Fitzsimons has a good head on her shoulders. We need her as Governing Board President.
I’m not in favor of opening up clubs to those not residents of our community. Why buy here and why pay yearly maintenance fee if all will simply become public entities?
Having watched the video of the four hour meeting of June 4, and reading the subject Update of June 9, and having heard findings from an exploratory visit to Sun City re their operation of clubs that make and sell, it would seem logical that a study be made on the requisite changes that would enable our clubs to sell, based on the models of our neighboring communities, Sun City and/or Sun City Grand. Such a study would include, but not be limited to, the pros and cons, what associated costs there would be, what ongoing operational requirements there would be, and so on. Right now, there are more questions than answers.
Bottom line: what have we got to lose by doing such a study?
I totally support the proposal by Maloney and reject the idea of a recall by mancuso.
Please do not open clubs to the general public. We live here to have access to these clubs and we pay a premium for our amenities. Make the clubs align with tax codes or close those specific clubs that do not align.
This is my feelings as well. If they don’t want to abide by the statutes, then those clubs need to be disbanded. And you know who they are.
Hi everyone. Today’s meeting (9 a.m.) is moving to the Social Hall to ensure we have enough room if large numbers of members attend. Those of you who cannot attend may send comments to gb@suncitywest.com so the Board can hear your input.
I am not in favor of letting outsiders into our clubs. We moved here because of the residents , clubs and facilities and they should remain open only to the residents and their guests according to the current rules.
I was appalled at the behavior of one of the board members. The insults, tone of voice, talking over others, and general lack of respect was unprofessional and not acceptable.
We did not move here because there was a village store, we moved here because of the community and activities. I do not want my club to be open to the public.
I understand that the income from craft sales and advertising are what clubs use to purchase new equipment. I believe focus should be placed on finding a solution for this funding. The clubs are social clubs and should remain the same.
I believe that if a board member receives a financial benefit from selling crafts they should abstain from voting on this issue. The desire to continue making a profit, as witnessed in this video, should not be the driving force to a board member’s vote.
I would like to know more about how other Sun City communities handle this issue. We do not need to reinvent the wheel when there may be procedures and processes that have already passed the IRS issue.
I do not want non members in our club facilities only guest per club policy
Sun City West is a closed community and is the reason why we chose to live here. If people from the surrounding communities ie. Surprise. Glendale, Peoria. even Phoenix are able to partake in our amenities, we will not be a community. The integrity of our community will be compromised and people will no longer have a reason to want to live here. Our property values and community will deteriorate.
I don’t understand why this huge change has to be voted on RIGHT NOW.
My opinion is that we come into compliance with our CURRENT and long standing policies/rules, THEN have a measured and in depth COMMUNITY discussion about the other various options. This will give ALL residents time to become aware of the issue and form a thoughtful opinion.
At that point, we can have all residents vote individually.
I only watched about 2/3 of the very long June 4th meeting, but it sure seemed to me that there was some power grabbing and ulterior motives behind the contentious proceedings. I am of a mind to say slow things down until “we” can figure out what the HECK is going on there.
You all work for us!
Because the outgoing board of directors want to push the agenda of members not selling products they make.
Bravo! I feel this whole thing is being pushed from both ends. The members of this community need to be engaged in ALL of it. It’s definitely a power game being played at our expense
Definitely SCW residents only can join a club and definitely do NOT want any semblance to SC Grand. We moved from Grand to SCW to get away from their dictatorial management from the Governing Board. I definitely do NOT want SCW Governing Board involved in Charter Clubs revenue. The recommendations Director Donna Maloney and her committee were spot on and no, Mr Mancuso, those recommendations will not hurt SCW as you kept repeating.
I do not support opening our clubs to no residents. Some of our clubs are already crowded. We bought here in part because of the clubs and activities and strongly feel the clubs should be limited to residents. I also feel the events such as concerts should be available to residents and their guests before opening to the public. We pay dues to support all these activities and we should have access to them.
This is DEFINITELY NOT A SOLUTION!! Our facilities and clubs are for SCW residents ONLY!!
Why would we open our clubs to non residents. We are a senior community that support our own. 55+ doesn’t mean bringing in others from outside that could possibly be much younger. We are proud of what we have and you’re wanting to ruin that? Eventually that will cause problems as well.
I do not like non-residents being allowed to join our clubs or non club members allowed to be involved with a club.
Why is the Governing Board hesitant to look at other options, Enabling clubs to change their tax status to a non-profit that would allow a certain amount of sales such as the Sun City and Sun City Grand Clubs do. Most of the clubs at this point, have stopped ‘illegal” actions and are not selling. but have been waiting for some support from our Governing Board and Staff. We need help to come up with something that will work. So far, all we have heard is what we can’t do, and how anything else but disbanding, would cause an increase in our membership dues. Sun City allows all craft clubs to sell, limits their profit to $50,000 a year because the clubs are all 501 (c) 4 clubs. It would be a simple solution. It would not need administration by the Rec Center as each club would be responsible for their own bookkeeping as they are now. I agree with Kit Carter that an Organizational Expert such as Jack Leary, who volunteered to help would be a good idea. I also agree that opening the Clubs to non-members would not be desirable. However, I do think Lou should head up a committee to work on this; a committee not made up of only Governing Board Members. but representative from the clubs who are being affected.
Linda, we are working diligently on solutions for all the clubs. There is no one-size-all answer as our clubs are varied. We expect to have an update on progress so far at the Annual Meeting (9 a.m. Thursday, June 24, in the Social Hall).
Moderator’s Note: The views expressed here are from Director Mancuso as an individual director. They do not represent the views of the staff or the entire Board. Please note, while Director Mancuso invites residents to email him at his personal email address, all official Board-related emails must go to his @suncitywest.com address, per our policies.
Since I was mentioned in this article, I would first like to thank the Rec Center News for finally advising our Residents of their plans. However, as my original comment 6/9/2021 wasn’t posted, anyone interested in more information such as the times of comments made at the meeting (https://youtu.be/MtuEenoIzbs), which I believe would be of value to all charter club resident may email me at Lmancusojr@gmail.com or at my RCSCW email address – lou.mancuso@suncitywest.com.
If you attended the meeting today 6/10/2021, we had a great turnout and I apologize to the residents of the community regarding the guest policy that I suggested at the June 4, 2021 Governing Board Workshop. I should have been more specific as the change I suggested is a narrow change to our guest policy and would be specific to card and dance clubs ONLY. ALL of our other guest policies that are in place would continue. There would be no additional non-residents at any other venue in our city, which would include the pools, exercise areas, craft clubs, rec center activities, etc. We DO HAVE a solid guest policy and, in my opinion, it should be enforced except for card and dance clubs. As a matter of fact, the General Manager is exploring an exception to this policy for a card club as we speak. It’s interesting that this wasn’t mentioned. Hmmmm……… I will address my position on this later in my comments but I would first like to respond to another issue raised in the enews.
“The impacts of such a major change have not been fully investigated yet, but we do know more staff would have to be hired to run the day-to-day operations of the clubs and handle the accounting for the clubs. This includes accounting for public usage of the club facilities.”
I agree with this statement, however I would like to draw your attention to the latest financial statements that indicate that our community will LOSE more than $2 million dollars annually for golf and bowling. That’s right folks our 501c4 golf and bowling activities LOSE +/- $2million EACH and EVERY Year.
I believe our residents who enjoy golf and bowling, as well as these other activities are due the same resources as the above and I doubt that the amount of the additional cost to accomplish this will approach the more than $2 million annual LOSS for golf and bowling.
My suggestion for dance and card clubs are:
Card playing and Dance clubs.
Issues:
• Exceeding the 15% rule
• Existing guest policy
Exceeding the 15% rule
Suggestion: Any card playing or dance club that has events with non dues paying members or non residents would be required to advise the RCSCW General Manager of the event. At that event, a RCSCW staff member with a credit card machine would attend the event for the first two (2) hours, at which time the event would be closed to all but dues paying owner members. The RCSCW staff would ask if the person was a dues paying owner resident, a non-dues paying owner resident or a non resident. All revenue would be categorized accordingly.
ALL funds would be paid to the RCSCW, NOT to the club. Any expenses such as judges, food, etc. would be invoiced to the RCSCW not to the club. This would eliminate any funds going to the club and thus eliminating or minimizing the violation of the 15% rule. I would ask that each event be accounted for individually to determine the net revenue to the RCSCW (event participants revenue less expenses) and that each club have a ledger balance. This balance could be identified should the club request an expenditure by the RCSCW for the club.
Guest policy
I realize there are some out there that criticize me for my suggestions regarding guests. To that I would say for as long as I’ve lived here (2007) I have attended dance and card club functions with non dues paying owner residents and non residents. I have NOT seen that our facilities have been abused or overused but rather they have been vibrant with activity.
My suggestion at the June 4,2021 Governing Board Meeting was to limit those who are not dues paying owner members to the percentage of dues paying members (possibly 25%) and in addition at these events 50% of the participants at a charter club event must be dues paying owner members of that charter club.
This would easily be monitored by the RCSCW staff person taking the entry fees.
Cost could be an issue. I would say that although are staff are very good, many of our staff are paid minimum wage.
An example a dance or card charter club has 100 members and the non dues paying members and non residents are limited to 25% of the dues paying members. At this event 50 dues paying members attend and 25 non dues paying owner residents or non residents attend. There would be a ticket fee, very much like ticket master. Lets further assume this ticket fee is $3.00. The revenue in the first 2 hours for the 25 non dues paying owner residents or non residents would amount to $75. Assuming our RCSCW staff person earned minimum wage plus Fica, insurance, etc. their wages would not exceed the ticket fees they collected. As a matter of fact the RCSCW would probably benefit to the plus.
Now all of our Card playing and dance clubs that have these types of events can continue to be charter clubs and by changing the fee collection and guest policy to a reasonable policy, we would not FORCE them to VIOLATE our guest policy nor IRS rules.
“One proposal offered by Director Lou Mancuso would dissolve the clubs’ independent 501(c)7 statuses and move the clubs under the Association’s 501(c)4 umbrella. He further proposes that non-Association members could enjoy the clubs by paying a fee.”
This is correct however there are other options as I mentioned above, which is the reason I’m so upset. Why weren’t we advised of the other options before closing the Village store? Stopping some charter clubs from meeting because of these issues. I’ve come up with 2 or 3 suggestions in a very short time. As this is such a serious issue, I will be asking other directors to join me in asking for a special meeting so a special committee can be convened immediately.
In closing I would ask anyone who would like to discuss this with me to reach out to me.
Thank you for your comments, I listened and that’s why I’m responding to you.
Mr. Mancuso, I would like to offer a few clarifying comments to you post.
First, Sun city West is not a city as you mentioned at least three times. Sun City West is a Post Office designation for the area in which we live. This postal designation also inches Corte Bella and a small residential area off El Mirage Road.
Second, the $2 million support given to golf and bowling is an accounting artifact, because these activities are listed separately on The Recreation Centers of a sun City West, inc, balance sheet.
Golfers and bowlers pay for there use of the facilities, as due outside players.
The golf 501(c)7 chartered clubs are not in any way, shape or form responsible for the amount our owner-members support golf. The golf courses provide many benefits to our community. They provide green spaces, scenery, habitats that increase the property value for EVERYONE that owns a property here.
The separate accounting of golf and bowling is confusing to the fiscal issues of clubs, because the expenses of all the other clubs are subsidized by the Owner-Members. In the extremely well equipped craft shops are all electricity, water, air conditioning and maintenance is provided for by RCSCW, INC. Paid for by Owner-Member dues. That’s correct, all the Owner-Members pay so that crafters can have a place to do their thing and create goods that they can sell, earn revenue and violate their 501(c)7 status.
Where is the outcry about that?
Keep bringing good well thought ideas forth.
Ideas that benefit the entire community of Owner-Members, not just a handful.
One of the reasons for buying in Sun City West are the great clubs and Rec centers . Opening up to outside residents would create an even bigger issue to the already overcrowded craft clubs ! We are already constantly looking for more room in the crowded clubs ! I would vote this suggestion down with a big NO !!!
Moderator’s Note: The views expressed here are from Director Mancuso as an individual director. They do not represent the views of the staff or the entire Board.
Please read my response Lou Mancuso, Director RCSCW on June 10, 2021 at 12:13 pm in the enews comment section that will clarify the guest issue that was, I beleive, taken out of context in the enews article.
The change in the guest policy would be for 2 clubs (card and dance club). ALL of our other guest policies that are in place would continue. There would be NO ADDIITONAL NON RESIDENTS AT ANY VENUES IN OUT CITY, WHICH WILL INCLUDE POOLS, EXERCISE AREAS, PICKLEBALL, CRAFT CLUBS, REC CENTER ACTIVITIES, etc. We DO HAVE a solid guest policy and, in my opinion, it should be enforced except for card and dance clubs. As a matter of fact, the GENERAL MANAGER is exploring an EXCEPTION to this policy for a CARD CLUB as we speak. It’s interesting that this wasn’t mentioned. Hmmmm………
As for the $2million dollar annual loss for golf and bowling I have included my response to a resident on this annual loss to our association. I can not attach a file to the comments but if you would like a copy email me at the address in my comments and I will send it to you with a full explanation.
The email response below is after I detailed the losses in the document (FY 21-22 Budget Packet – 3-10-21.pdf) that I reference above.
My point is that we all pay dues to live in this wonderful city with more amenities than any of us could possibly use. Who could want better!
I realize we all pay dues, and our dues support the golf and bowling deficit. I would also say that ONLY +/-25% of our residents play golf. Many just a few rounds of golf annually, however, the 75% that DO NOT PLAY GOLF are covering a hefty golf and bowling deficit of +/- $2million dollars annually with their dues.
I believe our residents who enjoy golf and bowling, as well as these other activities are due the same fiscal resources that golf and bowling residents receive and enjoy. I doubt that the amount of the additional cost to accomplish compliance with 501c7 tax issues will approach the more than $2 million annual LOSS for golf and bowling. Make no mistake, I believe this deficit will NOT DECLINE in the out years but ONLY INCREASE!
Certainly, some of the changes that will keep our city, nearly as close to what it once was, prior to this issue, will result in additional cost.
Would you refuse the 75% of our residents that don’t play golf and bowl their fair share of our fiscal resources?
Reasonable people make reasonable decisions, my issue is that I don’t believe the committee that was convened to address the 501c7 tax issue did their due diligence. As I mentioned in my comments in the enews article, I’ve only thought about this for a short period of time and have several ideas that at a minimum can be presented to legal and fiscal professionals to determine their viability.
Let’s all live here in harmony, but harmony means we know what the facts are, what the reasonable rules are and there is fairness and equity of our fiscal resources.
I welcome your comments and feedback.
I watched the video of the meeting and saw definite sides forming on the tax issue and the selling by craft clubs….very much in contention. . I disagree with opening clubs to non residents….ever. I feel that all ticket items such as concerts, plays, dances should be sold to dues paying residents first. After 48 hours if some tickets are left, then open to all. I was over at SCG on Saturday to visit their craft fair with my friend who lives there. It was much smaller due to summer and heat but the tents and products were enjoyable to browse. They had non SCG venders as well…kettle corn being one. People were strolling about and enjoying their shaded patio with misters going and getting food and beverages right there at their Bistro. I thought how nice it would be if we did something like that here. Instead we shut down our Village Store and are talking about Village Venues. I belong to a craft club with no window display for our Venue….?? Our members make such beautiful items and they deserve to be seen and enjoyed as do all of the craft clubs. Those who did sell in the Village Store were limited to 5 cards a week and it was tightly regulated and inventoried. Hardly high profit but you can only give your creations to family and friends so often. I agree with Mr. Mancuso about really exploring the SCG tax method …why can’t it work here?? Why all of those restrictions instead of allowing the clubs to sell their creations as per the IRS guidelines which SCG is following? I don’t understand the obvious reluctance on even discussing this issue by the powers that be on our Board and Rec Center Manager other then the fact Mr. Mancuso made them. His tact was not up to par today as he appears extremely frustrated by the whole issue but that doesn’t mean he isn’t right. I certainly hope this is not going to be decided by the Board but goes to a homeowner’s vote. A vote that our snowbirds can participate in, not just those of us who are here all year.
We bought a home in Sun City West four years ago excited to one day retire in Sun City West. Sadly can not live here yet as we are not old but anxiously waiting to “age in.” We bought because of the amenities and all the clubs the community has to offer seniors who want to live an active lifestyle. We also looked in Sun City. My parents live in Sun City and one drawback of selecting this community was that I could not do clubs with my parents or drive a golf cart over to see them. But the house and community will fit our needs wonderfully, so we decided to buy in Sun City West.
My knee jerk reaction upon being informed about this situation is that allowing non residents in is not wise….HOWEVER….let’s take a step back.
What will this look like on the grand scale?
1. Will non residents be subjected to the annual rec fee as well as paying the club dues/fees?
2. If they pay the rec fees, will they be able to use the facilities, or only join the clubs?
3. Will residents receive first dibs and only non residents be able to join if there is space?
4. If a non resident becomes a member of a club, and the club becomes full, can a resident bump the non resident out so they can partake in the club?
5. By allowing non residents into our clubs, does this have the possibility of improving our community without raising fees on residents?
6. Will there be age restrictions on members who can join the clubs and if so, will this violate any “age discrimination” laws?
7. Some park districts allow non residents to partake in programs but at a higher cost. Will non residents be charged a higher fee than residents?
8. If we allow non residents in, can this decision easily be reversed if it is not working out?
On the surface, this idea of allowing non residents in is not appealing. However, knowing more details about how this will function and what benefits and drawbacks this could bring to the clubs and community should be explored as it might be beneficial. It does not sound like there is a well though out plan with outlined financial, benefits, and drawbacks . Perhaps a list of options with a detailed outline needs to be done and presented to the community in a more substance filled proposal instead of a blanket idea. Also, allow members of the community to submit plans where this could work to the benefit of all who live in Sun City West. I have learned in my life that there are always people with better ideas than mine.
Isn’t it informative that after 40 years in business, the IRS itself has never had a problem with the operations of the 501(c)7 clubs, nor the Village store, nor any other of Sun City West’s choices.
The Truth: We are too tiny to pop up on their radar. We hold no “revenue” prize for the Internal *Revenue* Service. Yet there are those who bludgeon our Chartered Clubs with their illinformed views as if the service is ready to pounce and jail us all any second.
It’s long past time that all of us residents rose up to get rid of those who glower over us, pretending to stand in the shoes of Federal agencies, making our golden years more difficult rather than easier. Let the agencies do their jobs (which means they will pay no more attention to us in the future than the have in the past).
Bottom Line: Limit the authority of the staff. Treat RCSCW residents as adults rather than as students who must kowtow to the commands of the Principal (the General Manager) and the teachers (a few authoritarian, poorly chosen and poorly informed members of the RCSCW staff).
I would not like our clubs to be open to the public. The major reason being there would be no incentive to buy a home in SCW and live here. It is crowded enough we don’t need more people or members to our clubs.
I have to agree with NOT allowing outsiders to join our clubs. If there are 3 clubs that are in question, then it should be addressed rather then punishing the rest of the clubs. I am opposed to changing the current policy. Also, I think it is time for the board to start looking for a new General Manager. Mr. Schwind has done nothing but hurt this community with his reckless decisions in the past. Closing Golf Courses back in April, 2 weeks later realizing he made a huge error he reopened them. The GM is not looking out for he best interest for the residents who have moved here and made Sun City west home. We did that because of everything SCW has to offer. I can tell you, there are many residents who feel the same. The board needs to find a new General Manager before this ones destroys our way of life here in SCW.
If you open all clubs to public, you will lose a lot of members. The facilities are always busy without public attendance. I for one will not pay my yearly dues if it is open to the public, unless they pay the same amount as us or more. Golf courses are already difficult to get on, as well as pickle ball courts. Pools are busy with classes, and exercise rooms are difficult to get space. It would be a huge mistake to do this!
I wanted to,live and buy in SCW because of the clubs….
It would not be interesting to buy here if we do not maintain the benefits of ownership. Yes why do we buy here, not because of the other “perks”? Oh WHAT other “perks”???
Ditto!!
From watching the meeting on proposed changes to tax status regarding clubs it sounds like the special committee didn’t include everyone and Donna proceeded to make what changes for her own agenda. When a member of the committee didn’t even know who moved forward that says a lot. I think clubs falling under the Recreaction center tax except status like Sun City Grand is something that should be investigated
I’m not in agreement with opening up our facilities to the general public, but that has already happened, Beardsley concerts, golf, pickelball tournaments every outdoor venue in SCW that doesn’t have a recreation staff member assigned has violations. Do we have non members using outdoor walking track? Do we have non members using pickelball courts.? Do we have non members using softball field? Do we have non members using dogs parks? Other facilities yes we do! Every facility indoor or out should have a staff member scanning recreation cards just like pools and recreation centers. Lots of guest using clubs don’t get charged the guest fee because no one from Recreaction center of club itself is monitoring.
Amen. The board is derelict in their duties if they are not collecting dues from guest or allowing outsiders to sneak in without paying.
Why am I paying an annual fee if anyone can just walk in and use the facilities?
Amen! I know there are non-residents using the dog park. All the SCW facilities should be monitored or put on card-swipe access.
My goodness : In twenty five years of work as a Revenue Officer with the IRS I never worked a case pertaining a Little League, Soccer club etc. Example: One of the dance club in SCG has about forty to fifty people attending the dances. Do you think that the IRS has the time, manpower and better cases to pursue a nickel and dime social club? Wake up Mancuso and see the light. No more new employees, no more increasing our dues. Is this about power and near sight by boards member that know nothing about the non profits. Yes some of the clubs were taking money for advertising due their zeal to build new facilities and pay them with club monies. I am glad that the SCW is not furnishing any more free loans.
“one of our chartered clubs (Kiva West Bridge), brought to our attention that their tax preparer had concerns about the club’s filing as it appeared they were in violation of IRS tax codes. The codes require that 501(c)7s (social clubs) ensure at least 85 percent of their revenues come from club members (not Association members, but club members). Specifically, no more than 15 percent of a club’s gross receipts can come from non-club members.”
The commentaries do not explain how an excess of the non-members of Kiva Bridge contribute money to Kiva Bridge in excess of their 15% – is this income from non-members betting at Kiva Bridge Club?! A guest entry fee to play bridge? The quoted statement which opened this matter conveys that SCW Association members along with their guests play cards and generate revenue at Kiva Bridge club but are not dues paying Kiva Bridge club members. A simple solution is to require these Association members who are non-club members to join the Kiva Bridge Club in order to play bridge at the club! No explanation has been provided as to which of SCW dance clubs revenue is generated in excess by non-members – presumably the audience (non-members of the dancing clubs) purchase tickets to enjoy the dancers who are club members put on a show. Mr. Mancuso stated recommendation fails to recognize that already a portion of each ticket sold to the dance shows goes to RCSCW. As well, a portion of each ticket sold pays for the dancing clubs’ costs to put on the shows annually (costumes, stage props), and a portion of show revenue is paid by the dancing clubs for replacement of the dancing clubs’ equipment AND revenue generated by show tickets contributes to replacement and upgrade to digital equipment at the dance clubs shows’ venue – the Stardust Theatre.
The Mancuso recommendations fail to note that EVERY CLUB’s TREASURER has long been required to account and annually report to RCSCW the number of club members, club dues received, all club revenue, including specifically club sales revenue, and attach club bank account statements.. Each of SCW’s non-profit social clubs annual financial report is required to be signed and submitted by each club Treasurer. As well, that financial report must be audited and signed prior to submission to RCSCW by a different club member who is not the preparer of the financial forms. Club Treasurers are required by RCSCW to attend a training EVERY YEAR in the preparation of the forms.
Club members who volunteer for this “tax-preparer” duty necessary to the existence of an RCSCW chartered club are not required to be professional accountants; the only requirement is the financial reporter be a current club member willing to perform the task. After all these many years of volunteer club treasurer’s (as a current club treasurer I rely on the format of my two previous club treasurers, both retired professional accountants) and not since 2011, has this issue been concerning to any volunteer “tax-preparer”, Treasurer, club auditor, or the RCSCW accountant who reviews the club financial statements? (My filings have been reviewed on all these levels).
This seminal question as to the Kiva Bridge Club’s member “tax preparer’s” concern of an “appearance” of possible violation of IRS tax codes, could routinely be posed to a professional accountant. Perhaps the concern was validated, though the commentaries and published recommendations do not inform us that the concern of “appearance was presented to a professional accountant. It is recommended by Lou Mancuso, that a special committee of accountants and lawyers be convened, to operate under the direction of Board member Mancuso, to address the vexing question of whether everyone who purchases a dance show ticket or a craft item must first join the club which generated the item offered for sale at the venue; or, whether alternatively Sun City West Corporation and RCSCW must reformulate its corporate charter to accommodate the “appearance” of excess revenue at Kiva Bridge Club, and a recently recognized “appearance” of excess revenue generated at the showcases for SCW crafting and dancing hobbies.
Further, of the 62 RCSCW not for profit clubs, the few clubs in three categories which generate an “appearance” of exceeding the ratio of non-member to member generated revenue, it could be imagined that in our retirement – as dancers, fashioners of clay, of baskets, workers of wood and metal, and stained-glass, and players of bridge, we could be called on to defer – though certainly not to balance! – a 2 million dollar loss due to the seven SCW golf courses central to the conformation, provisions of open spaces, retirement lifestyle, attraction to and value of SCW properties – and our indoor bowling alley.
All this furor, lengthy recommendations, and calls to privately email and contact ONE of the members of a full Board, is due not to a challenge from the IRS whose POLICY IS TO ASSIST THE TAXPAYER, but due to a concern of a presumably volunteer Kiva Bridge club member “tax preparer”, whom may or may not have any professional knowledge of the full body of tax law nor familiarity with and practical application of the tax code. A “tax-preparer” presumably without familiarity as to both achieve non-profit IRS code compliance and operate as a non-profit club under the SCW corporate documents relied on by SCW property owners, and the RCSCW RR&P’s relied on by SCW dues paying club members. The leap from Kiva Bridge “tax-preparer” to special committee convener to golf course funding seems a precipice – the undisclosed profitable revenue generated by a few of our non-profit clubs must be substantial.
Our Singles Club is not affected by this IRS situation. However, it seems the=at the beloved (?) IRS is tampering once again with us “little folks” Why not leave us alone (again the LITTLE FOLKS, not the BIG corporations) in undermining our importance to our community. The Village Store, for example, needs to be open so that we and others can purchase gifts to support each crafts person… Why punish the LITTLE PEOPLE .. once again, letting Corporations and BIG spendors get away with NOY PAYING TAXES AT ALL!
Just purchased in SCW because of the recreation! Such a disappointment to hear it may open to non residents- watch this beautiful community go down slowly😱
I have read most of the comments from this and other meetings. I am opposed to allowing non residents, other than as guests, use our facilities. I have the following comments/questions.
I have read comments from this meeting and others and there doesn’t seem that there are many residents that think this is a good idea. Can you share any surveys you have done with residents that support wanting to do this?
I have yet to hear a board member state the specific benefits for the community of allowing non residents to use our facilities. Can you provide the specific benefits?
I am sure you have done a cost/benefit study to support wanting to do this. Can you share it?
It appears that board members will make this decision without approval from residents . Is that accurate?
If it is, I suggest community residents look into what options are available to stop this. Georgina makes a great point: ” watch this beautiful community go down slowly😱”
When we moved to SCW we paid a fee to buy into this community. It was $3,000+. If this passes I we would like a refund. This seems like bait and switch. If I knew at the time this was going to be an ” open ” community we would have bought someplace else.
From what I can discern all decisions are being made at the “board” level. When do residence of SCW get to add our input?
Tom, you can always attend any Board meeting – agendas are posted at gb.suncitywest.com. You can also email the board at gb@suncitywest.com. And the Annual Member Meeting is coming up – 9 a.m. Thursday, June 24, in the Social Hall. This meeting is a once-a-year membership meeting and is a great time to share your input with the Board. While all Board and Committee meetings throughout the year are open to our members (and livestreamed so you can go back and view them on YouTube), the Annual Member Meeting is specifically designed for Member input. Thank you.
I’ve done that – you shut down any comments that don’t agree with your agenda. And I’m betting this comment won’t be “approved” to post either clearly SCWRC is gatekeeping this site.
Michelle, we moderate all comments to ensure no vicious or personal information is posted. Nearly 100 percent of all comments are then posted as they were written. A minor few are edited for the aforementioned reasons.
I am strongly against opening up the various SCW activities to persons or groups outside of SCW residents. This is a special community and is unique in the State of Arizona and the entire USA. We want to keep that uniqueness that we presently enjoy. Opening SCW up to “outsiders” has the potential to ruin our special community.
As a past President of the Sportsmans Club I brought up my concerns about the activities for profit described in the above report. I was concerned that many clubs were allowing members to either make products or sell services to other members or the general public. I was told that this was in accord with the tax status of the Association. Apparently this is not the case. I will push to have more members present at these Board Meetings, which sound acrimonious at best.
Start from scratch.
Open the store for consignment selling. SCW crafters need an outlet for item they make. (How many yard signs, pendants, bracelets, vases can they make without some way to get rid of the excess? If there is none the number of members will drop.
The board is not at fault on this. However it’s their duty to fix for the community
(From a 20 year crafter)
Bringing all clubs under the association umbrella sounds quick and easy, but certainly would not be that way. Very few residents, in my opinion, would welcome non-residents on a regular basis to enjoy what we pay for in annual dues. We have guest policies in place today in most, if not all clubs. That should be sufficient for outside guests on a limited basis. Residents only for club memberships. We have a large number of resident club members who make crafts or items for sale. There has to be a way that these folks can sell their wares, not become a larger source of income for the clubs and be in compliance. How many $$$$ per hour lawyers and tax consultants does it take to clear this up?
I completely agree with the above comment. Guest policies are in place, and keep it open on a temporary visitation basis to those who are not residents paying fees. Otherwise, why have HOA fees if it will become open to general public?
I think the “Board” should think more about why many of our residents chose to move to Sun City West. I think I speak for many – we are friendly and cooperative people, but for many of us moving to Sun City West is very special because “it is our community” and we pay a lot of money for that opportunity. If those outside of Sun City West want to enjoy the opportunities we have, encourage them to move here. Take care of the few areas of non-compliance and carry on. As the old say goes, “if it ain’t broke, don’t try to fix it”.
We are absolutely not interested in opening SCW clubs or activities to the public! We think a 15% of public or guests as stated is the allowable ratio should be maintained. We did not chose SCW & pay our dues to allow non-paying participation from non-residents.
It seems to me that the answer is to this dilemma is being made much more difficult than it should. Replace the Village Store with a coffee shop, the profits going to the offset member dues. Stop allowing non-members access to chartered clubs. If a club can not exist without non-member support, the club should be closed. Any crafter or artisan that wants to earn money from their craft can sell their wares on eBay or through some other venue. The tax issue belongs to the artisan and not the community.
I’m very much opposed to opening our clubs to the public. Space is already an issue in the clubs I’m a part of and this will make finding a slot much harder. We moved to Sun City West in part because of the community amenities and are happy to pay our fees to enjoy what we have. Please keep our clubs and recreation centers guest policies as they are.
We do not think the public should be allowed to join SCW clubs. Visitors of members could be allowed as guests but not the general public as they would take spaces meant for residents. We chose to live in SCW because of the “closed” community with the services, groups and social opportunities for members and also pay rec fees to support this. It seems ludicrous at a time we are making sure the guest policy is closely monitored that you are considering opening clubs up to the public!
My comment pertains to the RH Johnson Sports Pavilion and not the tax issues cited above. I will be out of town and unable to attend the June 24 Residents meeting but I wish to STRONGLY OBJECT to the closure of the Sports Pavilion on Sundays during the summer. I realize summer hours are abbreviated but to close completely one day out of 7 is not acceptable. Imagine closing the swimming pool one day a week? We pay our dues timely and expect amenities to be available 7 days a week, barring any closures for maintenance. Again, reduced hours are understandable in the summer but not total closure. I realize the reason for closure in 2020–everyone does; however, I do not recall Sunday closure in 2019 or in the previous 4 years of my residency.
As Secretary of Rip and Sew, I reviewed the YouTube video to gain an update on the tax issue. In the midst of the discussion, reference to “memorialization” came up. Not too long ago (April 24, 2021), members from Weavers West gathered at Beardsley Park to “unveil” a stone to celebrate the life of an active member who had succumbed to Covid-19. The Memorial Garden was busy with visitors that day. Today, while at Beardsley, imagine my surprise that the bricks are in a pile of rubble and there is a safety fence surrounding the area. Where are the bricks that family and friends purchased with good money and good intentions? The SCW was in an uproar over the closing of the Village Store, but how many people knew about the change at Beardsley. I am not sure how this is related to the tax issue. Is this like Liberty, Sands and Memo sponsored courts? I do not see the courts demolished! The Memorial Garden was never really promoted or marketed, so if you were expecting to make money and this was a losing proposition, maybe more thought should have been made to saving it, rather than destroying it. I am saddened and disheartened.
I am shocked. Who and why destroyed the Memorial Garden? This kind of “action” is why I moved out of Sun City Grand.
Mary, no one destroyed the Memorial Garden. We’re not sure where the poster got that information, but the Garden is in fine shape. This picture is from this weekend.
Diane, we have double confirmed there is nothing torn up at the Memorial Park. The bricks are all still in place, and there is no caution tape around the garden. There may have been some work happening at Beardsley Park, in the grassy area where we are installing new electrical, but the Memorial Garden itself is pristine. The Rotary Club is still selling bricks, and we are still installing them.
Clubs allowing non-association members should NOT raise Owner Member Dues. Owner members already have to pay a fee to be a member of each club. Clubs should remain independent if they are unable to meet the tax standards not raise dues of those who do not attend the club.
Question: if clubs were moved under the Association’s 501(c)-4 umbrella is it a requirement to open clubs to the public? I looked up the IRS codes and couldn’t find where opening to the public is required. I may not have this right, but moving the clubs under the Association would solve many of the IRS issues. First the store could reopen and sell our crafts. Of course they would need a better accounting system where the IRS, the Association, the club, and the artisan all get paid and appropriate tax forms get filed (i.e. 1099 goes to the artisan) The sport advertising would benefit the Rec centers. Also, the clubs that have a high number of guest, need to charge for the guest and account for the dollars. Yes the Association would have to hire more people to make it fly and handle the accounting; how is this an issue? The Association is to support the community that lives here and the changes that were garnered through the special committee aren’t supportive, they are restrictive. I believe that if clubs were under the Association’s tax umbrella the clubs and facilities would grow organically and all would benefit.
Also, I want to point out that opening to the public is a separate issue, but the author of the news article linked them together. I don’t want to open clubs to the public. Presenting the alternative plan for our tax issues should not be thrown into the same discussion as opening to the public. If it is presented that way at the board meeting, then it is the Board’s way of steering the conversation/actions taken instead of the residents by introducing the “poisoned pill” which in my humble opinion dirty politics. I am not calling names here, just trying to present my opinion.
Jeff, thank you for your questions. There are several ways to handle our tax dilemma, and the solutions are as varied as the clubs. The General Manager will be presenting the options that work, and those that don’t, at the Annual Meeting (9 a.m. Thursday, June 24, in the Social Hall and on YouTube). There are some major issues with the 501c4 umbrella idea. This is called a “group exemption,” and the IRS is currently not allowing new applications for this categorization as they are reworking some of the rules. We couldn’t apply now if we wanted. Aside from that, we would not be able to run sales through us and pay individual artisans, for the following reason: “To be tax-exempt as a social welfare organization described in Internal Revenue Code (IRC) section 501(c)(4), an organization must not be organized for profit and must be operated exclusively to promote social welfare. The earnings of a section 501(c)(4) organization may not inure to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual.” Please join us for the Annual Meeting for additional details.
I have owned a home in Sun City West for a year now. I have visited SCW for about 30 years as my parents retired here. We should not allow non residents to use our facilities unless they are guests of residents. Our facilities are beautiful and well maintained because we all pitch in and pay our dues. Many of us volunteer to help keep our community lovely. I am sure most of us bought in SCW because of the unique character of our facilities. These are private facilities and should remain private.
I totally agree. In addition, I have heard that letting non residence use our facilities would would raise our dues because staff would need to be added to administer. This makes no sense.
What is the perceived benefit of doing this?
I am very much opposed to opening the clubs to the pubic. We already have too much ‘public’ traffic in SCW due to outsiders shopping at Frys, the Goodwill, other stores, Surprise traffic at the hospital, etc… The public is not careful of our golf carts, speed limits on RHJ, our rules, etc and they don’t care. We moved here and pay hefty association fees to avoid those public issues…otherwise we might as well live in Phoenix or Scottsdale.
I am adamantly opposed to opening up our clubs and activities to non-residents. That would completely change the charm of our community and the reason why many of us moved to SCW. Many clubs are already in need of more space. Allowing the public to join would only exacerbate that existing issue.
If you allow non-residents into the community the well run, exceptional clubs we now enjoy will not continue. I do not agree with allowing non-residents into the clubs
Why would Kiva Bridge Club be letting in non members in the 1st place? This is a chartered club and non members are not allowed. That club does not have a tax issue; it has a compliance issue.
I would not like to see our clubs open to nonmembers. We are able to bring guests, they see how the club operates and who the members are
The Village store showcased all that was available to member owners and renters. This has been a source of pride to members when freinds and family visited. Also, a great selling point for folks looking to move here.
If individual clubs are not in compliance with IRS laws, do something with those clubs, don’t punish the whole community.
Anita, that states exactly how I feel. We just bought our house in Sun City West and haven’t even moved in yet. Those were, indeed, big selling points for us and it feels like a betrayal to find out that we bought in for things that others might not have to. Some of the clubs I am interested in already have pretty limited usage times and I can only imagine that allowing in outsiders would further limit the availability. My problem is that I don’t understand all of the legalese surrounding the recall. Are these “changes” promoting or stopping that trend, and is Mr. Mancuso for or against the changes? I would appreciate is someone could boil it down for me.
It rankles me to have been sent a ballot without any explanation other than requiring me to have the civic responsibility to come to this forum to explore what seems to be a complicated issue. How many ballots are being ignored or casually filled out on a 50/50 guess? That’s a sad method of carrying out a referendum that impacts the quality of life in the community we deliberated strongly over becoming a part of. We were warned to stay out of the “the politics here,” but it seems like that would be detrimental, and would hand things over to factional disputes. That appalls me.
Sun City West is a community of like people. We live in our unique community for the private clubs and activities that are for residents only. As a resident we have pride in ownership. We do not want outside people. Our clubs, facilities, activities must remain private. That is the reason we all live here. It is a lifestyle.
Allowing the public into our community will trash our life style. Outsiders do not have pride of ownership. Outsiders have other public places to go with similar clubs and activities. Just as public transportation will turn our community into a lower life standard. It would bring in unwanted elements including crime, for sure.
This is not back east where the populations are much higher per square mile. Everything is public except for the elite private clubs. If that is the lifestyle you want to live in you need to live in that type of community.
I strongly object to even the thought of making our community open to the public. We are a unique set of people with like minds and activities. This is why we all live here. Making us a public community would devalue our homes, ruin our lifestyle, bring in more crime, social problems, and remove th Sun City West comradery that we have in our clubs and activities.
I live here for the Sun City West lifestyle. This is our final trimester of life. We do not need to demolish and destroy the lifestyle that we chosen to live in. I love it here the way it is. No Bad Changes. Only improvements are welcomed.
If you want to live in a public community with public facilities then you should move out of Sun City West.
As previous stated:
1. Only members and their guest should be able to use any of the facilities that we as members have and will continue to pay for.
2. Fold the clubs under the association who will set the rules to function and manage their tax concerns. If you want to play cards with other members great, if your intention is to gamble and make money playing cards, go to the casino.
3. Having members use the clubs to make money selling products. NOT, the purpose of the club. Sell your stuff on E-Bay. I think turning the store into a coffee shop is a good one. Just don’t let Bill handle the remodel considering the crappy job they did on the new ‘Pub’ in the bowling area.
4. Find a General Manager who has the background and experience to manage our community.
Why don’t you conduct some research studies on what the community members want? Surveys are an efficient way to discover the majority preferences. And then, make the results public for all to see. Of course, questions need to be unbiased.
These ad hoc comments are just a small indication of what members prefer. This way everyone knows what the majority feels are acceptable changes to solve any of these issues. I’ve been in research 40 years and clients are eager to see results and adjust policies and strategies based on the facts.
And please don’t let the public in. We have just enough public with guests. Don’t ruin a good thing.
Thank you Kathleen. We have done studies in the past – some conducted independently, some conducted by staff. There is also a lot of data already out there on retirement trends, including trends in communities such as ours. We are planning to create a Master Plan that will include such information.
How far in the past and where are the results on display for public (at minimum our SCW membership) to see? Frequent and current research keeps you in tune with an ever-changing membership.
Retirement trends sound like your reinventing a community that is already thriving. I’d like to know what these trends would be as I appreciate all the community currently offer.
Not reinventing anything at all, you’re discovering what the residents like and don’t like about their current community. It would be good to know if the possibility of “allowing in the public” is welcomed or not. These anecdotal message here are a great start, but an unbiased study that can be projected to represent all of the membership is ideal.
The store is a great asset to Sun City West.
My husband and I recently moved here and are blessed to retire early. I love to support the store, its nice to purchase something local and by someone who enjoys what they made. For some of the clubs, does this allows members on limited incomes reinvest in projects they may have not been able to afford through the month? I cant image much profit is made after expenses for most of them.
I hope the goal is to keep the clubs alive and active, NOT just by pickleball, tennis and baseball. All ages and abilities.
That’s my two cents.
I own a home in the community. I rent my home out to a single woman. I pay membership dues and get nothing in return for them as I do NOT use any of the facilities. I do not understand why my membership cannot be transferred to my renter to use the facilities. It makes no sense that she would need to pay another fee for a membership. It’s not like these fees are affordable. It’s double dipping in my opinion. This makes me furious.
No resident of SCW would even consider such a thing as changing to a public community. Why even ask? Maybe I am missing something but the answer seems simple… clubs and shops should conform to IRS codes. Everybody has to! More than 50 years ago Sun City was dubbed the “Original Retirement Community.” A new concept from the Del Webb Development Company. Because of the success of Sun City, in 1962 Del Webb was featured on the cover of Time Magazine. Quote from suncity.org website… “His legacy is our legacy and we hope to keep that candle burning bright.”